ROB SCHMITZ, HOST:
The war in Ukraine is exposing the growing divisions between the U.S. and Europe. President Trump appears to be increasingly frustrated by his failure to end the conflict. Here's what he had to say about some traditional allies during an interview with Politico earlier this week.
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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: In most European nations, they're decaying. They're decaying.
SCHMITZ: To get the European perspective on the state of transatlantic relations, we're joined now by Nathalie Tocci in Rome. She's professor of practice at Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies. Thanks for being with us, Nathalie.
NATHALIE TOCCI: Great being with you.
SCHMITZ: So let's start with Ukraine. We're seeing reports that U.S. envoy Steve Witkoff will meet with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy and European leaders here, where I am, in Berlin this weekend. We've seen a flurry of diplomatic activity in recent days. What do you think are the chances of any deal?
TOCCI: Frankly speaking, extremely low, and extremely low because there seems to be no intention whatsoever on Moscow's side to actually see this war come to an end. I actually think that the continuation of this war has become essentially fundamental to the survival of the continuation of the Russian regime. And as far as the U.S. is concerned, there obviously seem to be very little incentive, it seems, to exert any pressure on Russia. And on the Ukrainian side, although, of course, there is quite a lot of leverage that the U.S. has on Ukraine, it's not as high as it used to be. And this is essentially...
SCHMITZ: Right.
TOCCI: ...Because the U.S. doesn't provide military support to Ukraine anymore, certainly not as much as it did. And so basically, Ukrainians rely on the Europeans, mainly, and Europeans continue to stand by Ukraine.
SCHMITZ: And meanwhile, President Trump has not been shy about criticizing Europe. Last week, his administration released its national security strategy, and it marks a very different approach to Europe for the U.S. I took a few notes. According to President Trump, European leaders are, quote, "weak," and the European Union, he says, was established to, quote, "screw the United States." How do you see these statements?
TOCCI: Well, essentially, if you take not just the national security strategy, if you take the statements made by Vice President Vance back at the Munich Security Conference, if you look at the actions of this second Trump administration, it actually paints quite a coherent vision. And the vision is one that I would describe as imperial collusion. There seems to be an interest in having good relations with Moscow, to an extent, with Beijing as well, so in a sense, great powers that understand themselves as empires. And Europe is kind of inconveniently there, whereby if it stands united, it has a voice. If it stands disunited and fragmented, well, then it ends up on the colonial menu. And I think making Europe part of that colonial menu seems to be part of the intention.
SCHMITZ: Yeah. I mean, another highlight from that Trump document is that it claims Europe is facing what it calls, quote, "civilization erasure." As you know from living in Italy, one of the biggest issues fueling the rise of nationalist parties in Europe is immigration. Why do you think the Trump administration is so interested in this issue on European soil?
TOCCI: OK. So, of course, you know, one reading of it is, you know, Trump has an idea - or rather, his administration have an idea of we, the white and Christian West. I mean, that's one reading of it. But I think, frankly speaking, scratching the surface, it's obvious that - so take, for example, my country. My country is led by a far-right leader that President Trump seems to like quite a bit.
SCHMITZ: Right.
TOCCI: Actually, Italy has seen over the last three years with this government an increase - a steady increase of migration flows because the government actually knows that there are labor shortages. There are other governments in Europe. Let's take the social democratic Danish government that has actually been far more restrictive on migration. Now, that doesn't seem to be one of the favorite governments of this administration. So I think, frankly speaking, the underlying this whole sort of cultural, you know, sort of embedding of a worldview, there is actually, I think, the deeper sense that by supporting far-right governments in Europe, which tend to be - well, in fact, which are euroskeptic, you get to a weak and divided and fragmented and disintegrated EU, which is in the interest of a Trump administration that sees the European Union, as you were saying, quote-unquote, "screwing the United States" (ph).
SCHMITZ: That's Nathalie Tocci of Johns Hopkins University. Nathalie, thank you so much for joining us.
TOCCI: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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