A MARTÍNEZ, HOST:
Democrats in Virginia spent the weekend trying to figure out how to respond to a bruising loss in the nationwide fight over redistricting. Voters narrowly approved a new map for Virginia's congressional elections in April. Democrats hoped that would help gain them four extra seats in the U.S. House of Representatives. But the state Supreme Court struck down the new maps on Friday, saying Democrats failed to follow the proper procedures when getting the referendum onto the ballot. Reid Epstein is following this. He's a national political correspondent for The New York Times. Reid, you reported that House minority leader Hakeem Jeffries was on a call with Democrats from Virginia this weekend. What are they considering doing now?
REID EPSTEIN: Well, what the Virginia congressional delegation and Hakeem Jeffries spoke about was something they basically would consider a nuclear option. The Virginia state legislature has the power to set rules over the state judges, including their retirement age. And one thing they talked about on this call was lowering the retirement age of the state judges below the age of the youngest current judge, thus forcing the entire court to vacate their seats.
MARTÍNEZ: Wow.
EPSTEIN: The legislature would then appoint new Supreme Court justices, who would theoretically be more sympathetic to their cause.
MARTÍNEZ: How likely is it that Democrats would be able to pull this off?
EPSTEIN: At this point, it seems pretty unlikely. They would have to do all of this in the next couple of days this week in order to create a process in which new maps could be in place by this year's midterm elections. It's not out of the question that they would do this in the longer term. And I spoke over the weekend with a couple of state lawmakers who thought it was still something that could be done this year if they had the political temerity to pull it off.
MARTÍNEZ: As you described it, Reid, I mean, it would be a big bomb if they could somehow make that happen. I know Virginia Governor Abigail Spanberger is a Democrat. Do we know what she thinks about the idea? Is it something she might support?
EPSTEIN: She hasn't weighed in on this. I think, from what we know about her thoughts on the original redistricting amendment that passed before it was invalidated, she would not be a fan. She was not enthusiastic about that process when she was running for governor last year, and frankly, was not out in front in the efforts to pass it during the campaign that led up to the April vote.
MARTÍNEZ: So looking nationwide, I mean, where does this court ruling in Virginia leave the struggle between Republicans and Democrats to try and gerrymander as many seats in their favor as they can?
EPSTEIN: Well, you know, this has been going on for almost a year now since it started in Texas last summer. By The New York Times' count, Republicans have gained a net of about 10 seats or so in the redistricting fight between the two parties.
MARTÍNEZ: Now, Reid, I looked at your bio. And I saw that you're interested in how people and groups struggle to win power. You've been covering politics for a while. Gerrymandering has been happening for even longer than that. What are - I mean, just give me your thoughts on what this moment is like, and especially in the last year with everything happening with this issue.
EPSTEIN: I mean, gerrymandering has been happening since the dawn of the republic. I mean, the term dates to 19th century Massachusetts. But we've never had sort of a mid-decade fight like this where it's really tit for tat between Republican states and Democrat states trying to draw each other off of the map in Congress.
MARTÍNEZ: Is it just where our politics are at as a country? Or, I mean, is it going to calm down? I mean, I just - it seems like it's been a lot in a short amount of time.
EPSTEIN: I mean, I am a bit of a doomer on where our politics are at, frankly.
MARTÍNEZ: (Laughter).
EPSTEIN: I think that, you know, the people who say things can't always get worse tend to be wrong.
MARTÍNEZ: Reid Epstein is a national political correspondent for The New York Times. Reid, thank you.
EPSTEIN: Thank you.
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